Its good to get some half-frame discussion going. I'm shooting with an
Olympus D3 and am eager to pick up other cameras. However, information on
half-frame cameras is somewhat sketchy -- even on the Sub Club site, where
descriptions are incomplete. Earlier on other photo news groups, I tried to
get information on the metering system and battery requirements of the
Canon Dial 35 and received several contradictory responses -- the camera
had a selenium meter, the camera had a Cds meter, the camera took obsolete
625 batteries, the camera needed no batteries, etc. Finally I got it
sorted out, but would like to have more reliable and specialized contact
with other half-frame users.

I appreciate the Olympus D3's fast lens and quiet operation. I also like
the nifty little soft leather case it comes with. On the down side, I was
surprised by the degree of flare that was apparent on my first two rolls,
but I have removed the skylight filter that came with the camera to see if
that leads to improvement. I haven't been able to find a lens shade in
the right size, and even if I do, it would probably mask the meter and
part of the viewfinder. Has anyone else experienced problems with flare
on the D3?

The one thing that I miss with half-frame is the ability to use a longer
lens. I'm not quite ready for the financial investment that a Pen F or FT
would require. The Yashica Samurai sounds good, but I haven't come across
one yet. What are the pros and cons of the Samurai and how much should I
expect one to cost?

My other complaint about using half-frame is the limitation in the number
of labs that will handle printing for a reasonable cost. So far, the only
lab that I've found in the Ottawa area that is willing to do it without an
enormous premium does somewhat less than optimum work, and does it quite
slowly. Other than doing my own processing and printing, have people in
this discussion group had experience with Canadian labs that they can
recommend?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Langer

Email address: mlanger@c...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:10:07 -0700
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From: Christopher G Mullin <mullin@S...>
Subject: Canon Demi-C was Re: Half-frame user
In-Reply-To: <9701231301.ZM9551@pzimmerman-pc>
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I have one of these too, so I'l jump in. The lenses are true
interchangeable 28 and 50mm lenses, with a behind the lens shutter and
scale focusing. 28 and 50 actually equate to about 39 and 70mm on
full-frame. The metering is exactly like the cheaper Canon Demi of the
same era-- programmed shutter-aperture change with a match-needle on top.
1/30-1/250 and f2.8-22. There are frames for both lenses in the finder.
The camera and both lenses fit into a leather case about the size that a
full-frame camera of the time might have used.

It's been a *looong* time since I ran any film through mine.

While I'm on the subject-- has anybody got a Canon Demi-C rear lens cap
for the 50mm?? I'll pay vast sums! (or at least half-vast) ;) --Chris

On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Peter Zimmerman wrote:

> On Jan 23, 1:01pm, Mark Langer wrote:
> > Subject: Re: Half-frame user
> > Peter Zimmerman writes:

.

Christopher G. Mullin mullin@s... | I buy good
Special Collections Librarian 406... (voice mail) | regular-8mm
University of Montana 406-... (fax) | movie stuff
Missoula, MT 59812 Who else has *these* opinions--not UM!
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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:18:23 EST
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From: Mark Langer <mlanger@C...>
Subject: Re: Interchangable lenses for half-frame
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.970123125756.6579C-100000@s...>; from
"Christopher G Mullin" at Jan 23, 97 1:10 pm

Christopher G Mullin writes:
>
> I have one of these too, so I'l jump in. The lenses are true
> interchangeable 28 and 50mm lenses, with a behind the lens shutter and
> scale focusing. 28 and 50 actually equate to about 39 and 70mm on
> full-frame. The metering is exactly like the cheaper Canon Demi of the
> same era-- programmed shutter-aperture change with a match-needle on top.
> 1/30-1/250 and f2.8-22. There are frames for both lenses in the finder.
> The camera and both lenses fit into a leather case about the size that a
> full-frame camera of the time might have used.

Chris,

This sounds pretty nifty. Do you, or anyone else out there know of other
interchangable lens half frame cameras, other than the Demi-C and the Pen
F cameras? Ideally, I'd like something as compact as the Pen D.

Another thing I've wondered about -- were any half-frame cameras made with
rangefinders?

Thanks for helping out this rookie.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Langer

Email address: mlanger@ccs.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:33:19 -0500

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From: Peter Zimmerman <pzimmerm@I...>
Subject: Re: Canon Demi-C was Re: Half-frame user
In-Reply-To: Christopher G Mullin <mullin@S...> "Canon Demi-C was
Re: Half-frame user" (Jan 23, 1:10pm)
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On Jan 23, 1:10pm, Christopher G Mullin wrote:
> Subject: Canon Demi-C was Re: Half-frame user
> I have one of these too, so I'l jump in. The lenses are true
> interchangeable 28 and 50mm lenses, with a behind the lens shutter and
> scale focusing.
> The camera and both lenses fit into a leather case about the size that a
> full-frame camera of the time might have used.

I THOUGHT they were true interchangeables. The leather case is a very nice
compartment.

> It's been a *looong* time since I ran any film through mine.
\/\/ probably >4 years in my case too.
>
> While I'm on the subject-- has anybody got a Canon Demi-C rear lens cap
> for the 50mm?? I'll pay vast sums! (or at least half-vast) ;)

Yes, I have one. No, I won't sell. Of course, if 'vast' is around $50, then
sentiment fades.

pete

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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:35:31 +0100
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From: "Matthew L. Phillips" <mlphillips@G...>
Subject: Half-frame camera recommendation
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Greetings,

Mark Langer asked for other half-frame users recommendations on half-frame
cameras.

Personally, I use Olympus Pen cameras: the FT and the D. Books have been
written about the Pen F slr models, so I won't add much to that discourse.
There simply isn't anything to directly compare the Pen F models to.
Presently my FT is wintering at Bald Mountain, having its half-mirror and
meter assembly removed and replaced with the brighter finder mirror from
the F and FV.

I've seen much less in print regarding the Pen D series, a personal
favorite. They were from the scale focusing, direct viewfinder line-up of
Olympus Pens. The D cameras were aimed at a more serious user. Uncoupled
meter with EV settings: selenium in the D, CdS in the D2 and D3. Either 1.9
or 1.7 lenses (superb, very sharp); manual shutter speeds from 1/8 to
1/500. I picked mine up last year for $65, in mint condition, with wrist
strap, lens cap and pouch case. Since then I've seen them listed at up to
$150. Next to my (full-frame) Rollei 35SE, my Pen D is my favorite 'little
35'.

BTW, I have reprints of test reports on the Pen D, D2 and Pen W, if you're
interested.

Regards,

M.Phillips
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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:44:26 -0700
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From: Christopher G Mullin <mullin@S...>
Subject: Re: Interchangable lenses for half-frame
In-Reply-To: <199701232018.UAA13101@rideau>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Mark:

The Demi C actually *is* about the size of a Pen D-- until you put
on the 50mm lens. The only other half-frames I know of with
interchangeable lenses that were in series production were the Univex
Mercury from the late 40's (but just *try* to find the telephoto lens for
one!) and the original Konica Auto-Reflex, whcih took both fhalf and
full-frame, intermixed on the same roll, if you wanted to do that.

Of course, there were assorted very limited-production half-frame models
from Leica and Nikon. AFAIK those are the only rangefinder half-frames,
too. --Chris

Christopher G. Mullin mullin@s... I buy good
Special Collections Librarian 406...voice mail) | regular-8mm
University of Montana 406-... (fax) | movie stuff
Missoula, MT 59812 Who else has *these* opinions--not UM!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:41:00 -0500
Reply-To: MARTIN TAI <martin.tai@w...>
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From: MARTIN TAI <martin.tai@W...>
Organization: Westonia Computer Systems of Canada
Subject: Re: Interchangable lenses for half-frame

Mark Langer wrote:
-> Another thing I've wondered about -- were any half-frame cameras made
-> with rangefinders?

I believe Leica 72 was a half frame camera with rangefinder.

martin tai
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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:04:42 -0500
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From: Bogdan KARASEK <karabog@H...>
Subject: Half-frames: Pen F and lens adapters?
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Hi,

I have been following the half-frame thread for a while and would like to
interject with a few questions concerning the Olympus Pen F series of
cameras. Wouldn't these cameras be the solution for those (somebody asked
about that) who want to have interchangeable lens at a modest price? From
information that I have gleaned from various sources, the following lens and
euipement are available for the PEN series:

25 f4
38 f1.8
38 f2.8
40 f1.4
42 f1.2
60 f1.5
70 f2
100 f3.8
150 f4
250 f5

50-90 f3.5
100-200 f5

The above lens are ZUIKO's made by Olympus.

There are also 2x and 3x extenders made by third parties, as also a plethora
other equipement (bellows, finders, close-up ert.)

Interestingly enough, Olympus also made a series of lens adapters for the
following lenses: Canon FD, Exakta, Leica SM (39mm), Nikon, OM, T & T2
mounts, and M42 lens mounts.

It would seem that with the PEN F, FT, or FV, one could have quite a
complete system camera for half-frame.

I would like to know if anybody has had any experience with any of the above
lens adaptors (ie. do they focus to Infinity, can the meter on the FT be
used) particularly the Nikon, Leica, and M42 mounts as I have quite a few of
these lens.

I would be thankful for any information that anybody could pass on to me
about the lens adapters in particular and the PEN F & FT in general.

Thanks,

Regards

Bogdan KARASEK
karabog@c...
Montreal
Quebec
CANADA
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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:34:53 +0100
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From: Don Krehbiel <dkrehbie@S...>
Subject: Half-frames
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All of this talk about half-frame finally got me out of my chair to find
my first camera, an Ansco Memo. It is a leather covered, wooden box, in
which the film is advanced by pushing down on a lever in the back of the
camera. The lens is an Ilex-Ansco Cinemat F:6.3. There is no focal
length shown. Many of my junior and senior high school negatives, and
those from the top of Half Dome and George Washington's head were made
with this camera. The patent date on the back is 1929

But, what interests me is that since the film travels vertically, the
half-frames are horizontally oriented. Am I correct in assuming that
all half-frame cameras are designed for "landscape" rather than
"portrait" orientation.

Anyone know who would be able to R&R the mechanism? I would like to
load up some Tech Pan and try it. The film in the '30s was pretty bad.

Don
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Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:18:55 -0500
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From: Joe McGloin <XKAES@A...>
Subject: Re: Half-frame user

Thanks for your comments on half-frames.

The material on half-frames on the SUBCLUB is going to continue to grow. We
have a lot of information that is not yet posted. It just takes time. Since
there are literally hundreds of submini cameras (and many models have many
variations -- like the Dial 35) I don't think we will ever stop adding more
information. So keep watching. Every day new material is added, and our
currently long, but sketchy, list of half-frames will become more detailed.

I have a Pen D3 and have not had the flare problem you mention. I don't use
a lens shade, since the lens is somewhat recessed. Since the lens is so
wide, I would expect to get flare when the lens is used wide open. Perhaps
you could try a multi-coated skylight filter on the lens.

I have found a way to get telephoto shots with it and I had this posted to
the SUBCLUB in the CREATIVE CORNER section. It's called "MIXING THE NEW WITH
THE OLD" or something like that. It's nothing fancy, but since a lot of
companies make screw-in teleconverters, nowadays, you can get telephoto shots
on most subminis.

I also have used the Samurai Z. The earlier versions are nice, but I find
them a bit too large to fit comfortably in my hand. Someone with small hands
would find it impossible. The Z is a perfect fit and has everything from
autofocus and motor drive to multi-exposure and intervalometer. Too often,
autoeverything cameras leave features off. The Samurai put additional ones
in. I got mine, new, for a song. $60, when a store was closing out their
photo department. I haven't seen to many Samurais, but $100 would be a good
price. And the results are SHARP!
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Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:26:01 -0500
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From: Joe McGloin <XKAES@A...>
Subject: Re: Half-frame camera recommendation

If you don't mind letting us know, how much does Bald Mountain charge for
swapping the mirrors on the Pen FT. I've been considering having this done,
since I use non-Pen lenses on the camera and end-up using a hand-held meter
as a result? (For anyone interested in what we are talking about, the Pen FT
had a behind the mirror meter which dulled the image somewhat. By replacing
the mirror with a normal one, you get a brighter image at the expense of
loosing the metering ability)

Also, thanks for listing your Pen test reports reprints in the COPIER section
of the LIBRARY in the SUBCLUB.
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Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:28:04 -0500
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From: Joe McGloin <XKAES@A...>
Subject: Re: Interchangable lenses for half-frame

Actually, there were a LOT of half-frames with interchangeable lenses. Most
are very hard to find and very expensive. Nikon and the S3M which could use
the Nikon lenses (worth ~ $75,000). Leica the Leica 72 which used all of
Leica screw-mount lenses (worth ~ $25,000). The Ducati Simplex and Sogno
(worth ~$600) had lenses from 19mm - 120mm). More down to earth are the
Robot 18 which had plenty of lenses (30mm - 400mm). The Agfa Optima Parat
(30mm and 55mm). Pen F, FT and FV (20mm - 800mm). Pignons Alpa cameras had
several half-frame models and all took all the Alpa lenses.

In addition, many of these cameras could use lenses from independent
manufacturers, and with adapters, their flexibility can be expanded even
more. I have a Minolta to Pen adapter so that I can use all my Minolta
lenses (17 - 800mm) on my Pen FT.
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Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:11:01 -0500
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From: Joe McGloin <XKAES@A...>
Subject: Re: Half-frames

The original half-frames used the same format as 35mm movie film --18x24mm
vertically. That's what 35mm film was originally designed for. When the
35mm "full-frame" format came along it was, at first, called double-frame,
since it switched to a hortixontal format and doubled the size of the
original, movie format. Then they needed a name for the original, movie
format so they called it single-frame. The still cameras of the time that
used 35mm film, kept the movie format and the vertical styling.
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Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:27:29 -0500
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From: Peter Zimmerman <pzimmerm@I...>
Subject: Re: half-frame / Olympus Pen F
In-Reply-To: Godfrey DiGiorgi <ramarren@A...> "Re: half-frame / Olympus
Pen F" (Jan 23, 11:49pm)
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Mostly for Don K: My Demi-C and all other half frame cameras I know, except the
Samurai, have the film running horizontally so the picture is vertical (or
portrait) format.

pete
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Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:29:08 -0500
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From: Peter Zimmerman <pzimmerm@I...>
Subject: Re: half-frame / Olympus Pen F
In-Reply-To: Godfrey DiGiorgi <ramarren@A...> "Re: half-frame / Olympus
Pen F" (Jan 23, 11:49pm)
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I think the Dial 35 used a CdS cell. The little windows in the dial were either
waterhouse stops or filters (probably waterhouse) to moderate the incoming light
to set ASA.

pete
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Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:11:50 +0100
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From: "Matthew L. Phillips" <mlphillips@GEMS.VCU.EDU>
Subject: Comments on half-frames
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Greetings,

After weeks of little discourse on half-frame, the flood gates open! Some
comments in response to posts from 1/23/97:

My Pen D, with the earlier 1.9 lens, doesn't seem to have the flare problem
mentioned. I do have a lens hood for the D, but in cuts into the bottom 1/4
of the finder field.

Regarding Canon Demi's and Dial's: when shopping, examine the foam light
traps in the camera's back. Canon, more than other manufacturers, seems to
have used a foam rubber that is prone to decay. Every Demi and Dial I've
ever seen, like my Canonet and FTb, has had this problem if the foam hadn't
already been replaced. It's a problem that is easily rectified, but you
should be aware of it, and factor it into what you're willing to pay for a
used camera.

The lens surround on the Canon Dial may have somewhat resembled the
selenium meter cell on the Olympus Pen EE models, but the Dial has a CdS
meter, and therefore needs a battery. The circular lens elements on this
surround were backed with 'waterhouse stops' that masked this meter cell
for various ISO settings. The Dial had a rep for being less than reliable.

Another little known half-frame Canon was the very short-lived Sure Shot
Multi-tele, introduced around the same time as the Yashica Samurai. The
Multi-tele was an auto focus point and shoot capable of both full- and
half-frame. It had built-in focal lenghts of 36 and 60-something mm, plus
could take an add-on tele-extender. You can pick the Muli-tele up for a
song. Of course, an autofocus P&S may not be what you're looking for.
Longevity-wise: I dunno...

I'd like to hear the definative dish on the adaptors for the Pen F models:
what I've read would indicate that they could focus to infinity (w/the
exception of the Leica thread mount), but had no built-in lens diaphragm
linkages, and therefore required manual stop-down. (I'd like for someone to
verify this for me.) If this is true, then users considering putting late
model Canon FD-mount optics on an Olympus will also need an arc-shaped
plastic clip to disable the diaphragm lever on the back of the Canon lens
in most cases. Canon sells these clips for about $5. I would especially
like to know if using an adaptied PC lens on a Pen will cause vignetting
when shifted.

Please keep the half-frame info coming.

Regards,

M.Phillips
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Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:16:20 -0500
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From: "Paul C. Spangler" <spangler@L...>
Organization: UBIK Design
Subject: Re: Half-frames
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I seem to remember, about ten years ageo, seeing a Konica half-frame
that had a vertical film path. Has anyone run across this item?
Although I carry a Tessina or Minox B with me most of the time, I keep
a Pen EE and a flash unit in my car for unexpected situations, and use a
Pen S for a backup when shooting important events (all-manual
reliability and 72+ shots per load) with my OM1.
Note: I still have about eight rolls of Illford XP1 Autowinder film on
ice (discontinued, dated 1983). The extremely thin polyester base
allowed 72 full frame exposures in the regular cassette. 144 shots
half-frame per load!!
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Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:30:47 -0500
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From: Ben <brunner@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Half-frame user
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Just thought I would jump into this thread.
I have a Mercury II that I haven't used for years. The lens is pretty bad...

I need some help with my Agat 18K. Each time I've tried to use it I get
underexposed negs just using the pictoral fstop markings. Does anyone know
the shutter speed of this thing?? The russian manual is pretty hard to
figure out ;-)

One more thing. I plan to try my Minolta 16 II soon but the shutter speed
selector dosn't seem to make any difference. 'B' just clicks the same as all
the rest...I really want to get into 16mm but very cheaply. If it turns out
that this camera won't work does anyone have a user Minolta 16 II or
something like it cheap???

Ben
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Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:38:00 -0500
Reply-To: MARTIN TAI <martin.tai@w...>
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From: MARTIN TAI <martin.tai@W...>
Organization: Westonia Computer Systems of Canada
Subject: Re: Half-frames

Don Krehbiel wrote:
-> But, what interests me is that since the film travels vertically, the
-> half-frames are horizontally oriented. Am I correct in assuming that
-> all half-frame cameras are designed for "landscape" rather than
-> "portrait" orientation.

Most 1/2 frame cameras tranport film horizontally, hence the
picture is in "portrait mode", the one you have is quite unique.

Konica used to make a SLR which can be used in full frame mode
and half frame mode quite convenient;

martin tai
=========================================================================